I will pay for games!

rob1221

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  • Posts: 9388
Bad games can be made in a few hours, but good games, not so much.

Agalag

  • Posts: 9
Rob, Are you telling me when I read,

"Productivity delivered.
Welcome to Stencyl, web and mobile game creation done right.

Stencyl isn't your average game creation software; it's a gorgeous, intuitive toolset that accelerates your workflow and then gets out of the way. We take care of the essentials like physics and native APIs so you can focus on what's important—making your game yours.

Publish to the App Store, desktop and the web in record time with Stencyl."

is really false? Your words and explainations do not jive with the words I am reading on Stencyl.

I am looking for those who can implement and confirm Stencyl's marketing message, "simple."

Ryusui

  • Posts: 827
Like I said: it streamlines the development process, but it does not magically turn every user into a game-making assembly line. There is a huge difference between "it provides tools to allow even non-programmers to make complex games" and "it does all the work for you."

It provides a built-in graphics editing program. It does not make the user an artist.

It provides a full-featured level editor. It does not make the user a level designer.

It provides a user-friendly code-free programming interface. It does not make the user a programmer.

It provides everything anyone could need to make a decent game. It does not make the user a game designer.

Stencyl is designed to be a learning tool for beginners and a powerful development environment for experts. I cannot emphasize this enough: it helps people make games, but it does not make games on its own.
In the event of a firestorm, the salad bar will remain open.

Kajitii

  • Posts: 184
It's almost as if you're talking to us as if we're representatives of Stencyl LLC.

I have a good appreciation for the amount of time and effort it takes to make a quality game.  Even a semi-quality game I can still appreciate due to the amount of hours dumped into it.  And I've seen the development pipeline from enough perspectives to know how much effort it takes.

But just like many other people have said, you can make games really fast if you wanted to, but they're not going to be quality games.  Quality games take a lot of time and effort, and they're no walk in the park.  Stencyl is just simply there to help organize your stuff and streamline the process of making a game.  It doesn't actually teach you how to create a game from scratch, let alone a good game.


Case 1: Developer A takes Stencyl kits and resources to make games and/or reskins old games.  He submits games to the Newgrounds (NG) portal.  He abuses the NG API to make some money.  In a short span of time, he uses content from Stencyl to quickly make "out of the factory" games.  FYI, a score of 2 generally means it is pretty crappy, and if it has a score less than 2 during judgment, it is automatically deleted from the website.  The maximum score a submission can receive is 5.

Game 1 - Jan 18 2012, score = 3.30
Game 2 - Jan 19 2012, score = 3.32, basically a clone of game 1 except it replaces the enemies with SOPA targets.
Game 3 - Jan 19 2012, score = 2.71, basically a clone of the Catapult kit from Stencyl except it replaces the enemies with a blue guy, and additional levels.
Game 4 - Jan 20 2012, score = 2.53
Game 5 - Jan 21 2012, score = 2.34
Game 6 - Jan 23 2012, score = 2.39, basically like game 4 except different levels.
Game 7 - Jan 26 2012, score = 2.21

What was the general verdict?  People weren't wow'd by the games in general (except the first two, who doesn't love explosions?), and for those who are regulars, they have noted the clones and the lack of enjoyability.  Some people have noticed that the games were made from generic Stencyl resources and the music/sounds weren't originals (not that it is necessarily bad).  Even worse was the extreme pervasiveness of ads.  No one enjoyed him blatantly producing shovelware just so he can grab money.


Case 2: Developer B teams up with Composer B to make games.  He makes all of his art and code, while the composer makes all of the music.  Not sure who made the sounds, but it's minor.  After his initial gauntlet of small games, he starts going bigger and bigger after recycling his assets from earlier games.  In addition, he practices good game design and is able to explain his decisions.  He submits his games to various portals, including NG and Kongregate.  I'll only list his scores and reviews on NG in the interest of saving my personal time.

Game 1 - Jun 18 2008, score = 4.43.  A dress-up game, where all the visuals, sounds, and explosions are far beyond the expectations of a dress-up game.
Game 2 - Sep 2 2008, score = 4.26.  Reaction time game.  All the opponents and outcomes are animated differently, and it was cool to watch the ensuing fights.
Game 3 - Jan 1 2009, score = 4.14.  Target gallery game.  It felt a bit messy tbh, but still fairly solid.
Game 4 - May 1 2009, score = 4.42.  The start of a really good series of games.  Turn-based combat, and only turn-based combat, similar to Final Fantasy.
Game 5 - Aug 20 2009, score = 4.42.  Same deal as game 4, except more of everything.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.  Due to the size of the game, checkpoints are included.
Game 6 - Jan 9 2010, score = 3.73.  Not much of a game, but more of a gallery of his sketchbook.  Still, pretty cool, and some may find it inspirational.
Game 7 - Sep 12 2010, score = 4.43.  Same deal as game 5, except even more of everything!  Includes map movement, quests, the ability to save anywhere, and tons of achievements.  IMO, this is his first really big project.
Game 8 - Apr 2 2011, score = 4.41.  A danmaku game.  His animations turned into cheap 1-frames (at the benefit of performance), but the mechanics are very good.
Game 9 - Dec 28 2011, score = 4.40.  A platformer!  It's not particularly memorable, but still delivers fun.  I suspect his score is padded because he has such a huge fan-base at this point.

What's the general verdict?  People gave him glowing praises, and in areas that were lacking, the author was humble and took the time to explain some choices, or even actively seek to rectify the problem.  Developer A got virtually nothing that Developer B and Composer B got.


Case 3: Riot Games started developing League of Legends as a small team of devs way back in ... 2008 or something?  They liked playing DotA (Defense of the Ancients, a Warcraft III mod), and they recognized the potential it had.  However, they knew that time was critical, and they had to get a public product out soon or risk getting left behind by other DotA-inspired games that were sure to come out of the works.  Case in point, HoN (Heroes of Newerth) was already out and about.

They double-timed it and came up with the beta in a year; most online games stew for at least a couple of years before the public even touches them.  The result was a playable game, but it was clear where the downfalls were.  Adobe AIR was the front-end client to the game itself, and it was riddled with performance issues and glitches.  PvP.net, their chat service, had its own share of glitches.  The game generally works, although if you play it long enough, like many other games, you'll notice nuances and details that will greatly annoy you.  On top of all of that, the servers were prone to failing.

Riot Games acknowledged all of these problems (unlike many other gaming companies), and it addressed these problems one by one in people-person talks (unlike many other gaming companies), while doing its best to explain the situation without compromising their business (unlike many other gaming companies).  On top of all that, they themselves were players that just wanted to create a game that they could enjoy without the limitations of the Warcraft III engine that DotA was based off of.  To that end, they promised to put the players first in all things (unlike many other gaming companies).

They've made many mistakes, which are apparent to veteran players.  For instance, they decided to create a new map and undergo a host of other projects that affected the game on a fundamental level.  Months down the road, with no word from the devs, people complained that it took so long.  Finally, they just straight up admitted that announcing such features so early was a mistake, as ultimately they either got shelved indefinitely, or dropped entirely.  Announcing features early with no certainty of delivering hurt EVERYONE.  No one liked it.  Riot Games learned their lesson.

Few years later into the present, their quality has improved, their performance standards have improved, their servers are rarely into downtime, if ever, and the integrity of their systems and the game in general are top-notch.  It is also a serious contender on the eSports scene, upsetting Starcraft 2 in South Korea in many statistics.


Case 4: I'm no top notch coder, and I'm even less of an artist.

It takes me an hour to produce a template pixel art piece that I can live with (because I have OCD standards  :-[).  Given practice, I'm sure I can reduce that time to something like 20 minutes, which is modestly more time than required for some hobbyist pixelers to draw something of an equivalent size.

It takes me a few weeks to reverse engineer a custom data file (excluding security issues), and write a script to automatically parse and write all the data into formats that any PC can read using readily available tools.  And when I attempted to copy the script just for kicks, I tried to do it without referencing the original script.  It takes me 2 days to rewrite all the code and make sure it is working as intended.

« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 06:13:37 pm by Kajitii »

shotfrost

  • Posts: 221
actually,i don't think you have to focus on the productivity of one person so much.let say that one developer takes 2 months to finish an average game(i can't say a good game because that also depend on the skills of the developers).and let say there are about 30 developers out there who want to so their games.so,finally, you have 30 quality game in two months,which means 3-4 game per weeks.it actually meets your needs and above all,you have quality game, not some stupid,lame game that is created in a few hours.

Yeti Ball

  • Posts: 101
Agalag is slowly coming to the realization that Stencyl does not create games at the push of a button and now he needs to rewrite his entire business plan from the ground up!   :P

On your website you say that you are "on a mission to build the perfect mobile game."  Is this still your goal, or is your goal now to "pay people peanuts to produce many crappy games?"

I have a question for you, an honest question.  How much do you think OUR time as game designers is worth? 

I'm just finishing up a very simple, single level "endless runner type game" similar to Doodle Jump.  I've been working on it when I have free time, and figure I've put about 40 hours of work into it.  I'm a designer (product designer) by trade, and charge around $40 an hour for freelance design work, so at that rate this game should be worth about $2000 (strictly from a labor cost standpoint), right? 

Do you think that is a fare price?  Do you seriously think anyone (other then some 12 year old kid maybe) is going to sell you games for around 100 dollars~!?   

Let's say even a very simple iOS casual game would take around a week to make (40 hours) which I think is reasonable, you would be offering the designer $2.50 for each our of their time.   >:( 

I think your OP is insulting to the members of this forum.   Good luck with your business, and by the way, I think your website is a perfect example of what cheap design will get you.

« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 07:27:13 pm by Yeti Ball »

Water Drop Game
Check out my new game on the Stencyl Arcade (UPDATED June 21st!).
http://www.stencyl.com/game/play/13158
Don't forget to comment and rate! :D

Hectate

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  • Posts: 4643
I made Skeet in 6 hours. You can see it on my profile if you like. It has custom graphics and uses public domain sound effects. If you pay me 60 dollars, upfront, I will have it ported to iOS. You can also have a complementary Flash copy to do as you please.

That said, I'm not interested in making junk games except as experiments.
:
:
Patience is a Virtue,
But Haste is my Life.
Proud member of the League of Idiotic Stencylers; doing things in Stencyl that probably shouldn't be done.

Agalag

  • Posts: 9
Shotfrost, You are exactly the attitudinal kind of person I am looking for. Thanks for telling me what can be done, instead of what can not be done. The 80/20 or 90/10 rule applies here too. Would you like to be one of those 30? I am hiring.

Max Finch

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  • Posts: 2180
Agalag,
      Just get it straight no one wants to get paid only $100 a week to bust there ass to make 3 video games in just 7 DAYS! it takes me half a month just to make decent graphics UI and such more for more custom art! I don't know who you are and frankly I don't care. Now your probably asking yourself why is this guy posting here then? Because you think you can just come on to a website forum you don't know much about ask a ridiculously foolish question for something that's just not gonna work!
The stencyl community is a amazing community they've helped me through a lot of frustrating problems. (BTW some of these problems can take days to solve.) so it makes me mad that you can just come here and trash the stencyl name and argue because your stuck up. How do we know this isn't a scam? Your entire website is very cheesy and you spelt about wrong by the way.

So MY point is keeping pissing people off somewhere else we don't want your business.

darkknighth20

  • Posts: 97
I'm guessing you've never used Stencyl before. You should at least take a look to see what it's all about.

Yes -- Stencyl is simple. It does still take time to make games though.

If you were so serious about getting people to work with you, then why would you make such a vague, short post? One would think you would at least write a decent bit so that people understand really what you're aiming to do. A short post makes it seem as if this thread wasn't even worth your time.

Just my two cents / 0.02 USD. I don't know you or anything so don't take it personally ;)
- DarkKnightH20
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SWATLLAMA

  • Posts: 1059
Quote
Game 2 - Jan 19 2012, score = 3.32, basically a clone of game 1 except it replaces the enemies with SOPA targets.

That's because adding SOPA targets makes everything good. :)

Agalag: Do you plan to sell these games and actually make a profit? I know most people on the app store are dumb, but there is a little bit of thought that they do before they shell out money. Now, if you made it free and integrated ads, or made it paid and still integrated ads, you'd have more money going towards you.
Hail The Llama
http://www.kongregate.com/accounts/lSWATLLAMA
"Play the games" ~ The Grand Llama

It's my life goal to rickroll as many people as possible

Yeti Ball

  • Posts: 101
Someone should move this to the Developers Exchange section.

Water Drop Game
Check out my new game on the Stencyl Arcade (UPDATED June 21st!).
http://www.stencyl.com/game/play/13158
Don't forget to comment and rate! :D

captaincomic

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  • Posts: 6109
If you pay someone to make games for you, and you don't do any of the work, then the only motive I can see is making profit. So you want to buy games to put them on the App Store to make more money than you paid for them. If that is the case, why would someone want to sell his games to you, instead of putting them on the App Store himself making more money himself?

It's an entirely different situation if you team up and share the profit, or if you hire someone to do some of the work, e.g. you are a programmer/artist/composer and are hiring one of the other two.

The bottom line is: I don't see the point of your offer.



Abigayl

  • Posts: 807
Someone should move this to the Developers Exchange section.

Agreed.
If you need help, please check my tutorials either here or Kongregate (http://www.kongregate.com/accounts/Abigayl) or come over to my stream: http://www.livestream.com/poweredbyflowers

MetalRenard

  • Posts: 134
I'm no game-maker, but I am a music composer, and I can tell you that to make a 3 minute piece of music I expect to be paid more than $200, and that's low. So I don't see how you can expect a full game for less than $300-400 when you consider all the artwork that would be needed too.

Just my view. :)
Composer. Rocker. World Ambassador For Foxes.
http://metalrenardmusic.com/