Will you support Stencyl if it will start kickstarter company?

ceosol

  • *
  • Posts: 2275
The suggestions, comments and complaints of Stencyl users should be seen as invaluable to the Stencyl team. We are trying to help the engine that we've decided to use. "Go use something else," is not a solution.

The Stencyl team never said that. Those comments came from individuals.

Stencyl CANNOT incorporate 3D without completely changing the engine's structure. 3D involves a ton of calculations to create smooth rotations of objects. If you want to do a 3D game in Stencyl, you CAN make a Doom or Wolfenstein. I have created some tests on this topic and they work. I just have not performed the calculations for clip plane and rendering order - the last bit to have a true functional prototype. You CAN make a Diablo style 2.5D game with a bird's eye fixed camera in Stencyl. I have played around with 8-way movement (better would be 16-way for smoother transitions), and it looks pretty smooth. Here is my test: http://www.stencyl.com/game/play/33126. It only has the bottom walls created. Merrak's Thief of Vallas is much more advanced in terms of lighting and atmosphere.

People bring up multiplayer all of the time as a fault with Stencyl. Even in Unity and Unreal, multiplayer does not just automatically appear. You have to do a lot of programming to have it function correctly. It is the same with Stencyl, you can do it, but it requires a lot of work on your end.

Finally, the claim that UE4 and Unity are completely free is untrue. Unity has a $3,000 fee for using Pro features. And if you create a game that makes over a certain amount of money (something like $100,000 or so), you are forced to pay for Pro. With UE4, you pay a 5% royalty to Epic Games if your game makes over $3,000. Stencyl does have a $200/year charge for the full subscription, but it does not collect royalties or charge you more money if your game(s) do well.

Tepastelija

  • Posts: 51
Finally, the claim that UE4 and Unity are completely free is untrue. Unity has a $3,000 fee for using Pro features. And if you create a game that makes over a certain amount of money (something like $100,000 or so), you are forced to pay for Pro. With UE4, you pay a 5% royalty to Epic Games if your game makes over $3,000. Stencyl does have a $200/year charge for the full subscription, but it does not collect royalties or charge you more money if your game(s) do well.

Actually Stencyl is really cheap engine if compared to other similar ones. Gamesalad is using monthly based fee nowadays which is 19$/ month at minimum which means 228$ / year at minimum.. However, you can't publish on mobile with 19$ so yearly cost is more likely over 250$ with that one.. And compared to Stencyl, Gamesalad is lackluster. Construct 2 costs 99$ to start developing, but if you manage to get over 5000$ revenue, then you must pay over 350$.. And GameMaker is even more costly if i remember right..

So overall Stencyl is cheap engine if compared to other and just thinking what can be done with it..

merrak

  • *
  • Posts: 2593
Stencyl CANNOT incorporate 3D without completely changing the engine's structure. 3D involves a ton of calculations to create smooth rotations of objects. If you want to do a 3D game in Stencyl, you CAN make a Doom or Wolfenstein. I have created some tests on this topic and they work. I just have not performed the calculations for clip plane and rendering order - the last bit to have a true functional prototype. You CAN make a Diablo style 2.5D game with a bird's eye fixed camera in Stencyl. I have played around with 8-way movement (better would be 16-way for smoother transitions), and it looks pretty smooth. Here is my test: http://www.stencyl.com/game/play/33126. It only has the bottom walls created. Merrak's Thief of Vallas is much more advanced in terms of lighting and atmosphere.

Another point that often gets left out of discussions on 3D is the scene designer. The scene design mode is a significant part of Stencyl's environment. A 3D scene design mode would be quite different.

Designing levels for a 2.5D game in Stencyl's scene editor is definitely doable--some of us would remember DEU for Doom. Thief of Vallas' use of the scene design mode was inspired by DEU. I'm having a hard time imagining what a 3D scene design mode would look like, that is also general enough to be used for any type of 3D game.

I have yet to hit a limit using Stencyl that wasn't my own fault. Many of the developers in the forums (particularly new developers) place a lot of emphasis on getting their code working. Of course, getting a working program is an accomplishment, and one to be proud of. But optimization is equally important--if not more important. I've ran into my own share of optimization problems in my last two major projects, and they were all solvable with the tools Stencyl provides. I can't speak on the jitter bug in particular, since I haven't encountered it--but in general, most speed and flow issues can be solved with careful research into the proper use of Box2D, tracing function calls, analyzing loops for efficiency, etc.

tigerteeth

  • Posts: 734
It's crazy how this jittering issue is suddenly a big deal like i didn't ever notice it ever and now it's all i can think about.

gurigraphics

  • Posts: 689
Generally a discussion only serve to know better the people.

tigerteeth

  • Posts: 734
I think it's a like when you read in forum post that says your head itches, and then suddenly you have to scratch your head.

gurigraphics

  • Posts: 689
Quote
Generally a discussion only serve to know better the people.
This comment was not a indirect personal. Before someone me interpret bad and will give me moral lessons...  :P

Warzone Gamez

  • Posts: 712

Imagine attempting to create this... https://soundcloud.com/kill-the-copyright/aevi-intercept-kill-the-copyright-release


I've made music semi-professionally (both electronic and in a indie-pop band) and I've made video games as an amateur, and video games have many more different variables. I mean obviously it depends on the kind of music you're playing/video game you're making, but... Look at it this way. You can get a guitar, a mic, and garageband, and make a simple song in a few days. You can even use your computer keyboard to record synth and drum sounds. To make a simple video game, it would take longer (unless you use pre-made elements).

And... I hate to be that guy, but that song you posted is very, very, very simple. (edit to make up for that last comment, I will tell you that your music is basically almost as good as the song you linked to).
In my experience, music production is more difficult both learning, and mastering than game development is. Its hard to compare because the two because the boundary of what is considered "good", is hard to determine. I think after my limited tinkering with stencyl, I can now create a "good" game, but I have been working a lot harder and spending a lot more time on music production, and I'm not even sure if I am considered "good" yet.

Now, you said you Dj-d, I am assuming that means you used the preset sounds and a turn-table. When you make music like that, then I would agree with you that game development, but for me, I create my own sounds from scratch, starting from a saw wave and building up, which is probably the hardest part of music production.

The reason I say music production is as/more difficult is because it requires much more time and skill. Game development relies largely on remembrance of code and logic, but music production requires musical skill, creating sounds, creating chords and patterns, and musical logic, and those things do not come quickly.

My bottom-line, I feel music production requires more raw skill, and is much more time-consuming. I know a lot of work goes into game development, but I feel music production (if done correctly) can require more.
Making Dubstep is my passion.  Following
Christ is my greater passion.

View my SoundCloud page here... https://soundcloud.com/noobstep-544260267

1MrPaul1

  • *
  • Posts: 1285
2D engine. Ok, but for this time the engine is even more limited. Only for pixel 2D game or some windowed, non dynamic games.
I too offer hear term "engine for prototype" when people talking about Stencyl,  many devs' made their first games popular games in stencyl and than switching on Unity. This is not good. I really hope that Stencyl can do more and became most popular tool for making games and apps.
i know that some advanced features in unity and unreal can be done only with tons of additional coding, but
base of stecyl is - programming without coding...
If i was able to code I will choose Unity even if I want 2D game, there is no problem with it.

What i call a good game
this

This is indie project too, made by one person(almost)
In Unity.
From first look, it can be done in Stencyl and in 2D
But when you start to working you hitting in the wall.
There is small things that so hard to do in Stencyl.
Look how robot steps on the trees, look at the sun, how it shining trough buildings, look at the FX.
Look at the smooth scrolling and amazing parallax effects.
This small things made this game just mega cool.
This guy -author, showed just several pngs but many people already want to give him their dollars...
No matter how i tried but I can't to do the same things in Stencyl.
i don't know why.
Something with render, something with performance, do not know.
Another example
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2016/03/03/no-mans-sky-launching-june-21st-on-ps4/
Amazing game that everyone want to play, it an Indie and again Unity.
people are ready to buy too, while price is not small - 60$

after release of this games, we will see new success stories and everybody will go to the Unity. And situation for Stencyl became more harder with each day if do not do nothing.

If 2D is only one option, at least we need
normal working with lists without pain.
Normal render without jitters and lags.
Full control on camera.
Scroll, zoom, shake
Some skeleton animation to avoid making many sprites and for games where heroes got to consist from many parts.
Even better if it will be some more advanced skeleton animation where physics will be applied on all body parts as in real life.
Advanced lighting effects
And online features for facebook and google play at least.
Without coding.




gurigraphics

  • Posts: 689
Quote
The reason I say music production is as/more difficult is because it requires much more time and skill. Game development relies largely on remembrance of code and logic, but music production requires musical skill, creating sounds, creating chords and patterns, and musical logic, and those things do not come quickly.

Not wanting to be boring ... but this is important.

It depends of the game. Maybe pong or snake game is 90% code and logic.

A good game code and logic is about 20% of game (So to speak.). Because you may have talent out of the ordinary, and post-doctoral in a language of programming is be unable to make a good game.

Maybe you think: only programming a game is equivalent. Then I agree.

Or then, if you program your own Software Music Tracker (no Ableton Live, samples, vsts and plugins), hence perhaps the comparison is more fair.

On the topic of Merrak I posted some of the skills that a game developer need:

http://community.stencyl.com/index.php/topic,44376.45.html

It's only a example. But the equation is simple: imagine have that make good musics, good sound effects,  good drawings, good animations, good stories, good levels, good interface, good controls, etc etc etc.  and it all yet have to combine.

And I say good, not great. Even in team is difficult, imagine alone.

Maybe music can be compared with pixel art.



Example: scale of colors, lighting, shadows, contrasts, patterns, diitering, shading, textures, filters, objects, groups, layers, movements, style, harmony, rhythm, bars, etc.

And in a game this is just a background...

« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 01:36:23 am by gurigraphics »

tigerteeth

  • Posts: 734
In my experience, music production is more difficult both learning, and mastering than game development is. Its hard to compare because the two because the boundary of what is considered "good", is hard to determine. I think after my limited tinkering with stencyl, I can now create a "good" game, but I have been working a lot harder and spending a lot more time on music production, and I'm not even sure if I am considered "good" yet.

Now, you said you Dj-d, I am assuming that means you used the preset sounds and a turn-table. When you make music like that, then I would agree with you that game development, but for me, I create my own sounds from scratch, starting from a saw wave and building up, which is probably the hardest part of music production.

The reason I say music production is as/more difficult is because it requires much more time and skill. Game development relies largely on remembrance of code and logic, but music production requires musical skill, creating sounds, creating chords and patterns, and musical logic, and those things do not come quickly.

My bottom-line, I feel music production requires more raw skill, and is much more time-consuming. I know a lot of work goes into game development, but I feel music production (if done correctly) can require more.

I said I made music. DJing was less than 50% of what I did. Think about it like this: Avicii's music is so simple that it basically requires one person to make all of it*. Same with many other DJ-producers. Whereas video games can require teams of hundreds of people.

Here's another way of looking at it: when you make a video game, music is just one of the million things you have to understand.






*absolutely no disrespect to the man. I love simple music

Warzone Gamez

  • Posts: 712
In my experience, music production is more difficult both learning, and mastering than game development is. Its hard to compare because the two because the boundary of what is considered "good", is hard to determine. I think after my limited tinkering with stencyl, I can now create a "good" game, but I have been working a lot harder and spending a lot more time on music production, and I'm not even sure if I am considered "good" yet.

Now, you said you Dj-d, I am assuming that means you used the preset sounds and a turn-table. When you make music like that, then I would agree with you that game development, but for me, I create my own sounds from scratch, starting from a saw wave and building up, which is probably the hardest part of music production.

The reason I say music production is as/more difficult is because it requires much more time and skill. Game development relies largely on remembrance of code and logic, but music production requires musical skill, creating sounds, creating chords and patterns, and musical logic, and those things do not come quickly.

My bottom-line, I feel music production requires more raw skill, and is much more time-consuming. I know a lot of work goes into game development, but I feel music production (if done correctly) can require more.

I said I made music. DJing was less than 50% of what I did. Think about it like this: Avicii's music is so simple that it basically requires one person to make all of it*. Same with many other DJ-producers. Whereas video games can require teams of hundreds of people.

Here's another way of looking at it: when you make a video game, music is just one of the million things you have to understand.
*absolutely no disrespect to the man. I love simple music
1. I wasn't talking about Avicci Styled music , I'm talking about Monstercat, VR, and Zomboy styled music. Dubstep is much, much more complex than electro house or whatever. (No offense)

2. I was always talking about indie games, and indie music. Of course COD is harder too make than any song could ever be, but the average indie game, a platformer or something like this, is generally not nearly as hard to make as a "good" track.

It all depends on the game, or the track you make.
Making Dubstep is my passion.  Following
Christ is my greater passion.

View my SoundCloud page here... https://soundcloud.com/noobstep-544260267


ceosol

  • *
  • Posts: 2275
Can you guys take the music discussion to another topic?

@MrPaul, I agree with you that Unity is a more powerful engine. Nobody is disagreeing with you on that point. As you said, if you knew how to code, you would move over there. I know nothing about coding. I took one C++ class in high school 20 years ago. All I remember is typing "import ..." a bunch of times. I left my teaching career and started up with Stencyl. I would not be able to survive taking off to learn Unity from top to bottom. It took me over a year to start making money with Stencyl. It would take me at least 5 years to start making money with Unity (if ever).

In my opinion, that first game you linked was a 3D game with a fixed camera. It did not look like a parallax background to me. UE4 has a sample runner game that is 3D with a fixed camera and it looks very similar. Regardless of whether it was 2D or 3D, they obviously spent a LOT of time making the artwork and scenery. It was not an issue of Unity making it easy - they are just that good.

The second game you linked also looked like a 3D game. There isn't really a comparison when you look at two 3D games against 2D games in Stencyl.

Quote
If 2D is only one option, at least we need
normal working with lists without pain.
Normal render without jitters and lags.
Full control on camera.
Scroll, zoom, shake
Some skeleton animation to avoid making many sprites and for games where heroes got to consist from many parts.
Even better if it will be some more advanced skeleton animation where physics will be applied on all body parts as in real life.
Advanced lighting effects
And online features for facebook and google play at least.
Without coding.

Those are some good points. I have seen people talking about 2D lists and such - I am fine with maps and lists how they function right now. I do not know what 2D lists would be used for, so I cannot say whether that would be good or bad.

I've started working on unique camera controls: http://community.stencyl.com/index.php/topic,46792.0.html. If you want to join that topic, I would be happy to discuss progress on  camera, split screen and zoom.

Lighting effects, FB and Gplay features - I do not know how difficult that stuff is for the Stencyl people to implement. A lot of people are interested in that, so it would be a good thing for them to consider.

Skeletal rigging would be an awesome feature. I've tried to do it in Anime Studio for making sprites, but the limbs flail all over the place. I believe this could be implemented in Stencyl. However, it would be difficult to control.

Bhoopalan

  • Posts: 1019
I didn't go through the entire thread so not sure if this point is already brought up. But to the OP:

Why exactly do you think the revenue isn't good for Stencyl? Did you check out that Stencyl has been adopted by 400,000 developers? Just a year's indie subscription from 1% of it would be four million USD turnover per annum. I do understand that there are development cost. But I don't think that would be way high that Stencyl doesn't make profit.
If I helped you at anytime, help me back build my twitter followers :)
https://twitter.com/imbhoopalan