Will you support Stencyl if it will start kickstarter company?

thechaosengine

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You don't have to be a genius to be a good programmer, what kind of argument is that you silly dude!

ceosol

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Ok I'm a bad developer, as most of the people.
But if to think logically if the tool will be just for geniuses how it can be popular. There is not too much genius, 100-500 in the whole world. Make a tool for so small auditory is not profitable.
Tool got to be for stupid.
Best tool it is a tool with which even so bad developer as I can make good things.
In this case millions and millions of people will start to use this product.

I asked people to stop saying or implying that. There is a difference between being a bad developer and having a silly argument. MrPaul is NOT a bad developer. He just made a bad comparison between 3D games and Stencyl. Please people, be civil.

MrPaul's point was about trying to make Stencyl better. Vectrex was making the same point in his latest thread about Stencyl open source. Maybe a better option is combining the two threads' ideas.

Why not start a kickstarter to have a pool of money for paying contributors? I would guess that there would be more than 7 contributors if people received some form of payment for helping out. I probably would not fund a Stencyl kickstarter since I pay $200/year. However, I would fund a contributor kickstarter to get more people involved.

1MrPaul1

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You don't have to be a genius to be a good programmer, what kind of argument is that you silly dude!
I'm not saying that I'm a silly dude. Bud I can admit that I'm a bad developer.
But this is the theme for other long discussion not in this topic
This topic, as ceosol correctly noted, is about, how to enhance Stencyl .
And even 3D I suggested on a long perspective

P.S.
If to talk about my games failures  :)
Today found my first game that I made when finishing school almost  20 years ago (in attachment)
It is a table game on carton that was printed at 10,000 copies.

My conception was to make it very chip(as chip as bubble gum), and i made it in that way that allows print it almost for free. 
But than decided to enhance it than enhanced it again than again and again, the price become bigger and bigger and when i start to sell it wholesale dealers did not give the price that i need.
I tried to sell trough shops but it was not profitable because each shop do not buy more than 10-15 copies
and for selling 10000 I was need to spend more money for transportation than I will earn from it.
it was my first failure, I enhance the game too many times
But game was popular between schoolboys sadly that only schoolboys but not their parents who buying them everything.
This is my second failure I made the game for schoolboys but got to made for their parents.

Unfortunately I repeated this mistakes again in my computer games.
Enhancing the games too long and not rightly choosing my audience.
But anyway I'm not talking only about me, it is sad to see great stencyl developers on the other engines as Unity.
They make everything right but still not very happy with Stencyl(they even forgot that Stencyl made them popular)
and as i remember all of them do not happy with the same trivial things as  scrooling, lists, bugs, monetization.

1MrPaul1

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Another fresh  proof that something got to be changed in Stencyl.
Today finally decide to continue my game, update it to the 3.4 version, but the game is broken.
Everything working wrong there.
Conclusion.
Stencyl is the engine for small simple games or prototypes.
If you are making something more extended you will fail, or prepare to spend 60-70% of your work time on resolving Stencyl bugs.

SadiQ

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Today finally decide to continue my game, update it to the 3.4 version, but the game is broken.

And for some strange reason you assume that all the other engines don't have the same problem?
Proud member of the League of Idiotic Stencylers! Doing things in Stencyl that probably shouldn't be done.

1MrPaul1

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I'm not sure, because not working  in other engines as long as with Stencyl but I saw big and complex projects in other engines, in Stencyl - not.
You will tell me about Ghost Song, but I thing there is the same problems while development is so slow and Chost Song is platformer that using basic functions of Stencyl, except of shaders may be.
Try to look on it from my side, I rebuild my game several times already, and I'm tired from it. From start of the 3.0 I fighting with errors in Stencyl. while making  RPG alone it is very hard task itself.

thechaosengine

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Conclusion.
Stencyl is the engine for small simple games or prototypes.
If you are making something more extended you will fail, or prepare to spend 60-70% of your work time on resolving Stencyl bugs.


I don't disagree with that conclusion (which is to say, big projects can be done but will take a great deal of time and effort as they do in every engine ever created).

However, that's not "proof that something has to change", it's just proof that you're trying to use a tool wrong, while literally knowing you're trying to use it wrong.

SadiQ

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Try to look on it from my side, I rebuild my game several times already, and I'm tired from it. From start of the 3.0 I fighting with errors in Stencyl. while making  RPG alone it is very hard task itself.

Trust me I know what you're going thru. Every time I open a game and try to so something I get some OOPS message. Every time I compile I get a different OOPS message (that was supposed to be fixed ages ago). Every time I try something funky the game fails to compile for some unknown reason (that's always from my own lack of knowledge).

Eventually I learned that some blocks fail sometimes (so I simply find ways to avoid using them), some other blocks should have a "DO NOT USE IN THE ALWAYS EVENT" tag attached to them, and some blocks should not be used in the drawing event (especially Set Camera To X:[] Y:[] ).

In the mean time I switched to using only code mode behaviors and my knowledge increase a lot. I discovered that I could create things that are (almost)impossible to do with code blocks at the moment (terrain: http://www.stencyl.com/game/play/29340) (pathfinding: http://www.stencyl.com/game/play/22790), and I could approach more complicated things like AI without pulling my hair out (http://www.stencyl.com/game/play/30370)(and some other examples that I can't share). Did I mention the multiplayer extension that we released a few years ago?

The other benefit I get from using only code mode behaviors are the actual lack of annoying bugs. No more OOPS messages (unless I press the compile button or touch something else in stencyl :P ), no more 90% memory issue, no more blocks that fail to stick to my desired position, no more blocks that randomly fail to work after an update, and no more "THAT CAN'T BE DONE IN STENCYL" message that I had to tell people when ever they asked me to do something slightly more complex.

Stencyl has the power to do a ton of crazy things, just like any other game engine out there. It just doesn't provide blocks for every single one of those things, so it's up to the developer to look below the engine's surface. (If you can create a behavior from scratch with blocks you will be able to write a few lines to do the same thing in pretty much no time since you already have an understanding of how the logic works).
Proud member of the League of Idiotic Stencylers! Doing things in Stencyl that probably shouldn't be done.

merrak

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Today finally decide to continue my game, update it to the 3.4 version, but the game is broken.
Everything working wrong there.

I have some old 2.x games that I can't upgrade to 3.x--but the situation seems to have steadily improved since. Case in point: I recently upgraded my psuedo 3D/isometric game from 3.3x to 3.4x, and had no problems at all. It has far more complicated code than my 2.x games, more  graphics, more scenes, etc.

Upgrading through multiple versions in one shot is a tall order for just about any system. You might have to try downloading 3.1, 3.2, 3.3 and stepping through each major revision.

If you are making something more extended you will fail, or prepare to spend 60-70% of your work time on resolving Stencyl bugs.

I disagree. Individual experiences differ, of course--but I've spent maybe 1% of my work time on my last two major projects resolving Stencyl bugs... almost none at all on my 3D game. I did have to tweak the engine a bit for my catapult/physics game--not because of bugs, but so I could push the physics simulation a bit more. This involved a fair amount of research into the workings of Box2D, which is to be expected.

I think a fairer statement would be, "Stencyl is the engine that makes small simple games or prototypes easy." Making a tool simpler requires making more assumptions about the user's intentions, which in turn, makes it more difficult to step outside these boundaries. Stencyl recognizes this and provides means to break out of the box. SadiQ's experiences above sound like a good example--and I'd say my own experiences as well. Expect to do a fair amount of research to pull off 3D, AI, generated terrain, etc. The alternative is an engine that doesn't let you attempt these things. By bounding you inside a box in which failure is impossible, the environment will appear very solid... but that has its own costs as well.

1MrPaul1

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How to be if you can't code

i know that all engines have the same problems.

I know that Stencyl staff doing their best.
But it got to be done faster.

Because if to make long game, and do it not full time, you will need to remake your game very often.

I do do not make my game from summer 2015, and now it is something very very hard to find where is the bug in my games.
With flash everything is easy, you can use flash debug tool
But with exe for example, where app just crash....  Yoг got to place print before every line of your code.
But sometimes, app crash because something in engine was wrong and in this case only Stencyl staff will be able to find errors, and not always they have time on every user.

so i do not want to hear what I'm doing wrong i just want to see growing of Stencyl till bigger company, where bugs corrected faster and engine is refreshing more often.

Please place your ideas here.

ceosol

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I think your biggest issue is that you use a lot of custom blocks and extensions. If Stencyl updates, it does not automatically progress the custom blocks and extensions. I use zero custom code (others than mobile advertising every now and then). My games are created entirely from the Stencyl blocks, and before you ask, I have not made many platformers. I do not even use kits that others have made. My philosophy is that "if I do not understand it, I do not use it".

It is true that I cannot update a 2.x game into the current Stencyl versions (not that I would even want to). However, I have not had any issues updating 3.x games between versions.

People have mentioned other platforms. I had my halloween game in UE4 crash on me when I was trying to export to iOS. The file is now corrupted and I cannot even open it to view/recover the assets or code. It wouldn't have been so bad except that it was the 3rd time I was building the game. The other two times, I must have clicked something I wasn't supposed to and broke it. I do not know what I did each of those times to mess things up (meaning I cannot even avoid the mistakes in the future).

A former Stencyler moved over to Unity. In November of 2014, he bought some code in the Unity asset store in order to reskin the game for Christmas. He made the snowy village assets within a few of weeks and dropped them into the game. It was ready to publish in the first or second week of December. In May of 2015, the game still had errors/bugs. I just checked his Google profile and the game was never released.

MrPaul, people like you and I do not understand how to code. I cannot even get a simple statement to work when I try typing it - I cannot grasp the concept of syntax at all. A lot of the "more professional" engines require you to understand coding. Try to build your games using the simple Stencyl blocks. You can do many things with those blocks. I have been toying with new Stencyl mechanics - creating simple 3D environments, making Braid-like mechanics, and some other things. All of that has been accomplished using the regular Stencyl blocks.

merrak

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I think your biggest issue is that you use a lot of custom blocks and extensions. If Stencyl updates, it does not automatically progress the custom blocks and extensions. I use zero custom code (others than mobile advertising every now and then). My games are created entirely from the Stencyl blocks, and before you ask, I have not made many platformers. I do not even use kits that others have made. My philosophy is that "if I do not understand it, I do not use it".

I use a lot of custom blocks and extensions, and have had very few issues with them. That said, I think your philosophy is a good one to have. Similarly, "if you're going to use it, understand how it works" is good advice for anyone.

I've published a few extensions, and I usually try to anticipate what others might do with it and include relevant error handling, error reporting, safeguards, etc. Some extensions are better than others at catching errors. Those that aren't are going to be more susceptible to problems.

But with exe for example, where app just crash....  You got to place print before every line of your code.

I've been programming for years, and that's always been a part of life. There are debugging tools for executables, but sometimes it's just easier to use 'print'.

tigerteeth

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I have never tried any other game engine or software that does something similar to Stencyl, so I can't really compare it with any other game engine. But i do believe it is worth noting that these days people expect your laptop to just work, intuitively, quickly, and simply. This has always been my experience with Ableton Live; even when there was a crash (very rare) the back up system just got everything back up to speed so nothing was lost. Even external devices (soundcards, DJ controllers, MIDI-USB devices) have always been so easy to plug and play.

And, whilst I completely understand that making music is much simpler than making a video game to work on several different platforms, people do still expect that "plug and play" experience. Perhaps that is impossible (or perhaps stencyl is not designed to do that).

In any case, and I'm speaking as someone who loves Stencyl, I think there are many (fairly simple...) changes that could be made to stencyl to make it more use friendly.

- Collision vectors. Copy, paste, and draw them as if it were paint
- Actually clicking the blocks into place is a painful experience
- Scrolling
- Automatic back ups

« Last Edit: March 28, 2016, 09:55:09 am by tigerteeth »

Tepastelija

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I pretty much agree with everything that Tigerteeth said. I personally love Stencyl and i think the way it presents coding is easy to understand and very logical. Even if connecting blocks together can be painful time by time, i really like block system. However i'm fairly puzzled about Stencyl plans in upcoming future, because Jon's update is fairly vague.. Fixing bugs is great and appreciated but i still can't stop wondering why they are not making any official announcement about two things:
- Any plans to move openfl Next?
- When is html5 coming?

I put my sideway platformer on hold, because i just couldn't watch the horrid scrolling.. Especially with iPad it's so ugly that i don't see any point pushing my game forward until it's fixed.. That's why i'm currently concentrating some simple one button, one screen games. Also i think they should make some announcement concerning html5. Flash is getting obsolete very fast and we need html5 fairly soon imo..

Justin

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You can enable html5 today (and have been able to for some months now) by modifying a text file in Stencyl's settings. It will very likely be enabled by default in the coming months as we iron out any remaining kinks.

In [workspace]/prefs/boot.txt:
Code: [Select]
html5.enabled=true
We will hopefully move to Openfl Next soon as well. There may be one or two features that haven't been rewritten in Next yet, but I believe the vast majority of what we need is there now. Unfortunately it's not like flipping a switch, there will be some work required to upgrade to Next. Off the top of my head, for example, our gamepads code will likely need to be rewritten (but hey, we can make it better the second time around).

By the way, if you want to experiment, you can also enable openfl next, but it is by no means official or supported.
Code: [Select]
openfl.next.enabled=true
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