GS versus Stencyl thread at Gs forums !! (and went on many tangents)

Alexin

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Quote from: Dizko
Such a ridiculous mentality. I almost have to laugh because they reckon that being a programmer elevates you to some magical super star status.
It has to be because of their mentality. Mose people think "programmer = nerd != magical super star".
"Find the fun"
alexin@stencyl.com

Photics

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That Kongreate thread really upsets me. There's the air of "you must be a good programmer in order to make quality games"

That sentiment is not exclusive to StencylWorks. I've seen job postings that say, "Must know how to hand code HTML." Heh, would you tell a carpenter to build a house without power tools?

The difference between GameSalad and StencylWorks is that Stencyl gives you the option to see the code.

As for the hackintosh thing, I don't recommend it. Another option - used hardware. Although, I'm surprised at how much my old 2009 Mac Mini goes for on ebay. I don't really like used hardware. That's why I bought a new Mac Mini. It was the cheapest new Mac Apple had. (I bought a MacBook Pro, but I returned it.) My first testing device was a Second Generation iPod Touch. That was significantly less than $1000.
Michael Garofalohttp://photics.com – Author of The Interactive Stencyl Textbook 8)

1MrPaul1

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Yeah, when I see code lines of some complex games, I really think that programmers are superheroes... It's so hard to code... Stencyl it's not a constructor, it's more like new most easiest programming language. And this is the best advantage and differens of  StencylWorks.
I agree with you Michael. Don't like to buy second hand... Now, iphone became chipper of cause. Do you plan to buy iPad?

RobT

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Personally I think a lot can be summed up about GS in the fact that they charge $500 for a piece of beta software. I get the feeling at this point that the Beta tag is relatively arbitrary, but the mere fact that the continue to insist on calling it beta, is not only scary but odd.

I think the biggest advantage Stencyl has right now is speed to market. GS updates take forever, if it continues that way Stencyl will be worlds ahead in less than 6 months time.

Absolutely, what is the dark secret at GS HQ ?

I have always thought there was some very odd truth behind what goes on at GS. There are over 40 people working there yet they can't even fix the most basic of forum problems; it is very very strange. Perhaps they are dealing with a big ball of legacy code and all the original engineers walked out on them.

Alexin

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Fourty employees?! Well, someone has to make those fancy animations on the front page and the pixel art portraits.
"Find the fun"
alexin@stencyl.com

Manuel

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Needless to say that's a quite...

...big salad.
Game developers are the deities of the virtual realm.
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irock

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That sentiment is not exclusive to StencylWorks. I've seen job postings that say, "Must know how to hand code HTML." Heh, would you tell a carpenter to build a house without power tools?
I'd imagine that the results of using a tool that generates code for you would be messier and less efficient than typing it yourself. HTML is really really really really really easy to learn, too. There are no excuses.

Photics

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I'd imagine that the results of using a tool that generates code for you would be messier and less efficient than typing it yourself. HTML is really really really really really easy to learn, too. There are no excuses.

I don't think so. As a photographer, I initially didn't like the quality of digital cameras. But now, the quality is far better than what I could do before... lots of nasty chemicals, clunky enlargers, negatives that got dusty/scratched.

Stencyl is essentially a machine that codes for me... well... it eliminates the tedious part.

As for HTML, yeah it can be easy to learn. That's why I laugh at employers that think they can judge technical ability by the ability to work inefficiently.
Michael Garofalohttp://photics.com – Author of The Interactive Stencyl Textbook 8)

irock

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I don't think so. As a photographer, I initially didn't like the quality of digital cameras. But now, the quality is far better than what I could do before... lots of nasty chemicals, clunky enlargers, negatives that got dusty/scratched.
We're not talking about cameras, cowboy; we're talking about web design applications. Comparing two completely different technologies to each other can't prove or support a point.

Photics

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We're not talking about cameras, cowboy; we're talking about web design applications. Comparing two completely different technologies to each other can't prove or support a point.

Cameras, web design, cars... whatever... they all conform to the logic of the universe.

People are not robots. We don't excel at repetitive tasks. A large part of coding is repetitive. That's why StencylWorks is awesome. Not only do the "Blocks" simplify coding, but I can reuse large chunks of "code" in other projects. Why would I do that by hand?

Interpretors like Stencyl and GameSalad represents a better future for programming.

If you prefer a comparison with similar technology, the modern desktop shows the way. I generally don't use the command line to open files. I simply double-click icons on the desktop. The computer is working harder to make life easier for people. That's the way it should be... because computers are tools for people.
Michael Garofalohttp://photics.com – Author of The Interactive Stencyl Textbook 8)

Jon

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That Kongreate thread really upsets me. There's the air of "you must be a good programmer in order to make quality games"

That sentiment is not exclusive to StencylWorks. I've seen job postings that say, "Must know how to hand code HTML." Heh, would you tell a carpenter to build a house without power tools?

The difference between GameSalad and StencylWorks is that Stencyl gives you the option to see the code.

As for the hackintosh thing, I don't recommend it. Another option - used hardware. Although, I'm surprised at how much my old 2009 Mac Mini goes for on ebay. I don't really like used hardware. That's why I bought a new Mac Mini. It was the cheapest new Mac Apple had. (I bought a MacBook Pro, but I returned it.) My first testing device was a Second Generation iPod Touch. That was significantly less than $1000.

I also discourage Hackintosh usage - a number of our testers tried that route, and it inherently has problems with iOS development, whether using Stencyl or not. The "other" way of running OS X is much more reliable - but I won't name that way.

irock

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We're not talking about cameras, cowboy; we're talking about web design applications. Comparing two completely different technologies to each other can't prove or support a point.

Cameras, web design, cars... whatever... they all conform to the logic of the universe.

People are not robots. We don't excel at repetitive tasks. A large part of coding is repetitive. That's why StencylWorks is awesome. Not only do the "Blocks" simplify coding, but I can reuse large chunks of "code" in other projects. Why would I do that by hand?

Interpretors like Stencyl and GameSalad represents a better future for programming.

If you prefer a comparison with similar technology, the modern desktop shows the way. I generally don't use the command line to open files. I simply double-click icons on the desktop. The computer is working harder to make life easier for people. That's the way it should be... because computers are tools for people.
I never said we can't use tools to make our lives easier. I don't know any programming languages, which is why I use Stencyl. That doesn't mean that there's no benefit to knowing a programming language. I still have to use AS3 in my Stencyl games now and then because design mode doesn't do everything. My good pal Justin made a dialog system for Stencyl, which absolutely had to be done using code. People also type faster than they can drag and drop blocks. Additionally, based on what I've seen and experienced, compared to what an experienced coder can produce, certain games will not perform as well in a tool such as Stencyl, GameSalad or what have you.

People who know programming languages, know HTML and CSS, know how to use command lines, etc have an advantage.

Before you misunderstand me, I'm not saying that people who know how to code make better games. I'm saying that someone who knows how to make good games and how to code has an advantage over someone who knows how to make good games but doesn't know how to code. The same applies to just about everything.

1MrPaul1

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If thinking in this way, we will make the conclusion that writing programs in binary code even more effective and we are all must use binary code.... 00110010 and we have a one letter... cool....
Let's imagine, in future, when will be possible to create whole world in matrix, which language will be using? AS33 or C+++++++++++ or HTML35?.... I think, all of those languages became useless, and will be using something as Stencyl Works.

irock

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Okay, you're putting words in my mouth now. I didn't say anyone has to use anything. Comparing binary to a programming language is stupid because typing binary would be significantly slower than typing code, whereas typing code is faster than snapping together blocks. Learning binary is also implausible, whereas anyone can learn a programming language.

The point remains that, as it stands, people who know programming languages have an advantage since they generally can do more while doing those things at a faster rate with potentially more efficient results.

Ryusui

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For what it's worth, my very first efforts at translation hacking involved hand-assembled machine code. ^_^;

As a long-time programmer (however thin my actual resume might be), I can say this: game designers who can code have an advantage over game designers who can't. Generally speaking, it's faster and easier to make a game do what you want if you can write code as opposed to having to deal with premade behavior and action patterns.

The miracle of Stencyl, however, is that it narrows the gap between coders and non-coders. There are still things that simply can't be done using blocks, but practically all of the commonly-used API functions are represented through them: you can create fully-functional complex games without writing a single line of AS3.

The ridiculous thing? Even though I can code in AS3, I still use blocks when I can. They're more cumbersome than pure code, to be sure, but the fact remains that I can use 99% of Stencyl's advanced functionality without having to memorize the ins and outs of yet another API.

Stencyl's blocks are not a substitute for code; they are code. Stencyl users are becoming coders, whether they realize it or not. Once they learn the statements that correspond to all those colorful LEGO bricks, the transformation is complete - and yet I wouldn't blame them in the slightest if they kept using blocks, relying only on pure AS3 for the fiddlier bits.
In the event of a firestorm, the salad bar will remain open.