Turn Based game deisgn

TheLastScotsman

  • Posts: 87
I am in the proccess of creating my first turn based RPG and I was just curious, after reading how great and detailed the forum topic "identifying good game design" was, what people believed were good design elements of a turn based game? What helps to make a turn based game truely great, it could be anything from something as minor as playing a awesome tune whenever you win a battle or something as complex as having a level system that doesn't involve a really elborate and pointless framwork of orbs*cough* FFX *cough cough*?
I want to be the very best that no one ever was. To create them is my true test, to train them is my cause. I will travel across the web searching far and wide, each forum post to understand the power thats inside!

Hectate

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  • Posts: 4643
Good game design isn't any one thing. It's how everything works together to create a good experience.

It's like a car - how great would a awesome engine be in a car with a poor suspension and a wooden bench for a seat? Or maybe a gas tank that can only hold 2 gallons?

Everything is important! Turn based games are about being able to plan and plot, give the player opportunities to do so. Don't expect a player that likes turn-based games to react well to "action" type elements like "push the button at this exact moment to do more damage" (like I played in FFX). Keep a cohesive package that has parts that complement each other.
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TheLastScotsman

  • Posts: 87
Ok I think you misunderstood what I was asking. I was simply wanting to start a discussion about what are some good "elements of a turn based game", I am aware that it is the full design that matters in the end. To go along with your car analogy, I am wondering what people think make good tires, windows, seats, etc. not what type of car they like...
I want to be the very best that no one ever was. To create them is my true test, to train them is my cause. I will travel across the web searching far and wide, each forum post to understand the power thats inside!

Hectate

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  • Posts: 4643
Hrm, well by turn-based RPG I'm guessing you're referring specifically to the battle mode and not general RPG-ing around (unless the entire RPG is one big battle). So when it comes to battles...

1. The "Quick, press the attack button just right!" thing I mentioned above annoys me. My ability to win should be based on my stats and strategy, not button-press timing in an otherwise slow-paced choose-your-next-move battle.

2. Risk vs. Reward is a huge aspect of any game - in a turn-based battle it can be implemented in different ways. Big attacks that require power-up (leaving characters vulnerable) or a higher chance of missing (thus wasting the time involved), attacks that do more damage at certain distances (that involve careful positioning while risking more from counter-attacks), and the ability to choose which powers/abilities are available (but give hints so they can plan ahead for various scenarios that will be presented) all give players that chance to gamble with their game.
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Patience is a Virtue,
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TheLastScotsman

  • Posts: 87
Both good points. I definitely have to agree with the first point. Mardeek RPG is a perfect example of how this didn't work. For those of you who don't know in this series in order to land a criticle hit you had to press space bar at a particular time, this took a lot away from the idle, kind of chess like, strategy feel I think TBC games should have. Another really important thing to remember for a TBC is balance. The game should never feel impossibly hard and by no means should it be to easy. In the first case you will end up with a game like sonny 2, dont get me wrong I love the game as much as the next flash gamer, but no game should have a battle that you are almost required to look at the guide in order to beat because there is only one path to victory. In the second case you will end up with a game like the newest pokemon games(again love the game). Your players will find themselves going through monotonous battles over and over again in the hopes of leveling up their characters high enough to were they can plow through the game without ever even having to think about it. Any great game will have balance, but I think TBC games need it to a greater extent since the majority of the game is played using your mind instead of your button mashing ability.
I want to be the very best that no one ever was. To create them is my true test, to train them is my cause. I will travel across the web searching far and wide, each forum post to understand the power thats inside!

balore

  • Posts: 11
I think one 'good' element of a turn based game is that of customisation. Players should be able to go deep into the mechanics of the game fine tuning their every stat and move to achieve optimum results for their encounters. At the same time, the game should not punish players who do not wish to fiddle around with every single detail. Striking that balance is a rather important element imo.
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TheLastScotsman

  • Posts: 87
Thats a great point, I am just about to get into that aspect of my game so that would be a good topic to discuss. What do you believe are some aspects of a good level system? How do you believe you can achieve the balance between making a system that is designed for the "elite" and "casual" gamer alike? What are some places you feel designers should draw the line when thinking up new and sometimes out there leveling systems*cough* FF *cough cough*? What are some examples of exceptional leveling system designs that you can think of from flash games and console games alike? These questions should get the preverbial discussion ball rolling.
I want to be the very best that no one ever was. To create them is my true test, to train them is my cause. I will travel across the web searching far and wide, each forum post to understand the power thats inside!

Squiddicus

  • Posts: 53
For the bare bones, look at the original 'Dragon Warrior/Quest' game. That is as simple as it can get.

As for my 1/2 cent:
#1: Starting too hard, too soon. I am guilty of this fault. You don't want the hero(s) pawned in the first ten minutes because you should have healed. Start with reasonable strength heroes. Even 'Dragon Quest V' starts the hero at level 2. (Well, actually, you start at level 1, but your father protects you from the monsters, leveling you up.)

#2: Resistance training. In many games, if you, say, get a water ring, the next boss will have water attacks. Don't do this. Instead, throw a monster that deals lightning damage instead. Don't constantly throw monsters at the players that resist thier abilities/spells/items.

#3: YStL (You're Supposed to Lose) Battles. If you have a battle you're supposed to lose, make it obvious. Make the Great Monkey Overlord deal more damage than the player can easily heal. If you can't (won't) do this, at least hint before-hand.

#4: Grinding. Don't grind 5 hours to get one level up. It took me about 25 minutes to raise 20000 gold at the endgame of Dragon Quest V, with its equivalent of goldmen. If you need to grind to proceed in the game, even if you didn't run at all, we have a problem.

Again, look at NES RPGs for ideas/inspiration/balancing factors.
"Cave Johnson: All right, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons? Don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back! Get mad! 'I don't want your damn lemons! What am I supposed to do with these?'
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 ~ Cave Johnson Portal 2 text dump

Gonz

  • Posts: 11
Hrm, well by turn-based RPG I'm guessing you're referring specifically to the battle mode and not general RPG-ing around (unless the entire RPG is one big battle). So when it comes to battles...

1. The "Quick, press the attack button just right!" thing I mentioned above annoys me. My ability to win should be based on my stats and strategy, not button-press timing in an otherwise slow-paced choose-your-next-move battle.

This is exactly the opposite of what I want in an RPG. The first game I completed to 100% (and then replayed more than 30 times) was Paper Mario. In fact, I've been replaying it these past few days. The game is, of course, relatively easy, but it remains my second favourite game on the N64, despite this. Setting aside the wonderful aesthetics and presentation (this is an insanely polished game), the thing I loved the most were its turn-based battles with action commands. The feeling of pulling off a particularly difficult action command can only be described as delicious, and even the simple ones give you a tiny feeling of satisfaction. It's all about implementation.

Silux

  • Posts: 438
Mardek rpg is one of the turn based games that i liked most!

Brainstorm about how the characters should get abilities!
Players should always say "oooh" when discovers a new ability and shouldn't do boring thing repeatedly to get it learn't.

Grinding is a part of the rpg life, but the player shouldn't feel the need to use a bot or hack the game.

I hated the MMORPG ''Sacred Season'' because getting to level 100(and unlock the only two worthy abilities) required 1.2x1011 exp and you can get max 100exp per hit(unless you pay...).

Consider about skipping, auto-fight or reduce the encounters of weak monsters in low level areas when the character can easily one-shot them.(Indeed is quite annoying to get rid of monsters that don't help you leveling up)

Normal attack action should be the first option,but the less used.(because you can always use cooler abilities)

Meta-game abilities;like coin_reward+10%, Counter_attack, kills+10%, Create_an_object_in_the_inventory+2%...

Achievement quests;quest that rewards you because you got 1000enemies killed or 100crit.

Every action of the player should be rewarded.Even losing should give you a small tip, but not so great that players try to lose fast just to get it.

Maybe i should start an article on stencylpedia
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TheLastScotsman

  • Posts: 87

#2: Resistance training. In many games, if you, say, get a water ring, the next boss will have water attacks. Don't do this. Instead, throw a monster that deals lightning damage instead. Don't constantly throw monsters at the players that resist thier abilities/spells/items.

#3: YStL (You're Supposed to Lose) Battles. If you have a battle you're supposed to lose, make it obvious. Make the Great Monkey Overlord deal more damage than the player can easily heal. If you can't (won't) do this, at least hint before-hand.

#4: Grinding. Don't grind 5 hours to get one level up. It took me about 25 minutes to raise 20000 gold at the endgame of Dragon Quest V, with its equivalent of goldmen. If you need to grind to proceed in the game, even if you didn't run at all, we have a problem.


A lot of great stuff here guys. I am just going to talk about a few points that were brought up.

#2 on this list is a good point, I remember in the remake of FF3 for the DS they did a lot of this. I found myself buying the new typing armor right as I could because I knew the boss would be using what it was resistant to. One thing you have to remember though is you still want to give the player items they want to use, if they get a sword that does fire damage and all they fight is water elementals they are going to be unhappy and feel like what ever they went through to get said item was just a waste of time. A good way to balance this is make items resistant or super effective to the typing of the boss/area difficult to aquire, such as putting the fire sword hidden deep in a maze filled with plant creatures.

point #3 is one of those I just generally try to avoid. I mean nothing made me more mad than being told it was impossible to beat base the first time in the battle network games.

point #4 is such a prevalent thing in turn based games today that it was mentioned twice, which is unforntunate. I personally think that skill should always be the major factor in all video games no matter what their genre. I know that grinding is a neccessary evil to some extent but nothing gives me a better feeling than to go up against a tough boss and know I beat it cause I outsmarted after battleing it 20 times, instead of just having a more powerful sword. Any ideas on how you go about creating a game where grinding is not really an expected part of the game? I felt FFX did a good job of keeping the battles hard but not really encouraging level farming but it's been a long time since I played the game so I dont really remeber how they went about doing it.
I want to be the very best that no one ever was. To create them is my true test, to train them is my cause. I will travel across the web searching far and wide, each forum post to understand the power thats inside!

ICLHStudios

  • Posts: 88
To anyone aiming to make a JRPG, I would start off by recommending (possibly demanding) that they play a few specific games and really try to analyze what makes them work so well.

Pokemon, preferably one of the newest ones, the series has what is undoubtedly the single best balanced battle system of all time, play the game and go to any pokemon wiki (I prefer Bulbapedia) and just read about the types, moves, different pokemon, abilities, etc…

Golden Sun, the battle system is very solid, and is only improved by the quality animation and speed (both help keep it from being monotonous, I’m looking at you PSX Final Fantasy games). But most important, what would be a solid but otherwise mostly unremarkable battle system is made one of the most brilliant in the genre by the magic splash damage system.

Breath of Fire, while not specifically for the battle system, BoF deserves to be on this list simply for the menu system (in-battle, overworld, and especially in shops), far too many RPGs have everything overly complicated, but give no information to the player, BoF helps the player make the most informed decisions out of any RPG I’ve ever played, not once did I feel like I was ripped-off in a shop because I didn’t know what something really was, or was a perfectly good item because I had no idea how it was supposed to be used.

Now for my more specific advice:
Make sure that the turn-based battle system is good AS a turn-based battle system, not just an action battle system that has been cut up into a turn-based one. Real-time action battles can be enjoyable even when the player is essentially doing nothing more than the same basic attacks over and over, turn-based systems very rarely can.

One way to do this is to avoid lots of useless techniques, many RPGs give each character lots and lots of special combat options, but most of the time all but one or two are essentially useless. The pokemon games do this very well, with the limited amount of moves a pokemon can have and the extent to which the effectiveness of any move changes in different contexts, a certain level of conscious strategy is always necessary when battling enemies anywhere near your own level.

Similarly, outside-of-battle strategy can be deepened by making equipment much less linear. In most games there is a single progression of weak equipment to strong equipment, no thought is involved in choosing what to upgrade or buy outside of money management, any strategic options are usually limited to special accessories and kept to a minimum. Again, this is similar to pokemon moves, since any pokemon is limited to four moves and each pokemon has so many options, building a good moveset involves a lot of careful planning, choosing moves that work together well (with each other and with your other pokemon), that cover as many type weaknesses as possible, that maximize effectiveness against specific types, that are built for specific strategies but allow for improvisation… If something similar could be achieved with equipment it would add new levels of depth in ways few other RPGs have.

Make sure you play to the unique strengths of turn-based battle systems, things that cannot be done in real-time, such as allowing the player to take their time for strategizing (this can be helped along by making strategies involving thinking ahead and making abilities that work well to complement each other), and the ability to use multiple party members (again, like pokemon where many different pokemon can be used in conjunction to increase the effectiveness of each).

One more thing I feel I should mention is grinding. Grinding gets a bad reputation that is largely undeserved (MMOs aside), I’ve seen many articles and blogs about how grinding is all a big ploy to artificially extend the gameplay time of a game (and in most MMOs, it is) and call for an end to it, but they seem to be missing the true point of grinding. As a manga/anime fan and martial artist, I find grinding to be not a necessary evil like many, but an enjoyable part of the game that is simply poorly done most of the time (and I also prefer the term “training” because that’s what it really is). To keep it from falling into the traps that most RPGs succumb to, it must not be treated as a mindless “press ‘A’ repeatedly while walking back and forth” thing, but as a learning experience to train and challenge the player.

Training should allow a player to feel a growth of power (at a reasonable rate), but for the fullest effect, should not allow the player to really realize just how strong they’ve become until they’re back into the “main game” (no taking months to gain a single level coughmaplestorycough, and have you ever noticed that in manga/anime the characters actually get stronger faster the higher “level” they are? Why is that never true in RPGs?). Training should be dangerous (don’t let the player grind on enemies 50 levels weaker than them) and challenging, make the most grindable enemies tricky ones that require constant effort to defeat, provide handicaps that increase the exp gain. Training should be a learning experience, force the player to use different strategies than they normally would, and it should be where players gain most of their new abilities and learn how to use them.
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TheLastScotsman

  • Posts: 87

Pokemon, preferably one of the newest ones, the series has what is undoubtedly the single best balanced battle system of all time, play the game and go to any pokemon wiki (I prefer Bulbapedia) and just read about the types, moves, different pokemon, abilities, etc…

Golden Sun, the battle system is very solid, and is only improved by the quality animation and speed (both help keep it from being monotonous, I’m looking at you PSX Final Fantasy games). But most important, what would be a solid but otherwise mostly unremarkable battle system is made one of the most brilliant in the genre by the magic splash damage system.

Breath of Fire, while not specifically for the battle system, BoF deserves to be on this list simply for the menu system (in-battle, overworld, and especially in shops), far too many RPGs have everything overly complicated, but give no information to the player, BoF helps the player make the most informed decisions out of any RPG I’ve ever played, not once did I feel like I was ripped-off in a shop because I didn’t know what something really was, or was a perfectly good item because I had no idea how it was supposed to be used.



All three great sugestions. I actually went out and got breath of fire and golden sun after seeing this, so I could play them and learn from them. Just started them, so not much to talk about yet.

New topic. How much story do you believe should be put into a turn based RPG? I beleive that a good story should really be the driving force behind any RPG, but at the same time game play should still be a major role, as it is a role playing "game" after all. How do you go about preserving the balance? What are some good examples of games that have a balanced story to game play ratio?
I want to be the very best that no one ever was. To create them is my true test, to train them is my cause. I will travel across the web searching far and wide, each forum post to understand the power thats inside!

Squiddicus

  • Posts: 53
In a while, I'm going to make an RPG not dissimilar to the Dragon Quest/Warrior games. I want to finish it in RPG Maker 2003 first, so I know how much I'll be working with... if I can get motivated to complete it.

As for grinding, again, make at least one monster that drops a large amount of EXP.
An example from Dragon Quest IV:
NOTE: This is the NES version; information has been obtained from the Dragon's Den.
Metal Slime: 1350
Metal Babble: 10050
King Metal: 30010
***ENDGAME MONSTERS***
Bull Basher: 870
Clay Doll: 693
Demighoul: 558
Duke Malisto: 921
Fairy Dragon: 655
Flamadog: 585
Great Ridon: 1678
Guardian: 1040
Impostor: 582
Leaping Maskan: 495
Master Malice: 1232
Ogrebasher: 1023
Red Dragon: 703
Ryvernlord: 786
Spite Spirit: 965
Swinger (You should see the DS version's name): 1094

These are the 'Metal Slimes' compared to the enemies that appear in the last 2-3 dungeons

LINK: http://www.woodus.com/den/games/dw4nes/monsters.php
"Cave Johnson: All right, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons? Don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back! Get mad! 'I don't want your damn lemons! What am I supposed to do with these?'
 Cave Johnson: Demand to see life's manager! Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons! Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's going to burn your house down! With the lemons! I'm going to get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!"
 ~ Cave Johnson Portal 2 text dump

Silux

  • Posts: 438
Mardek3 on kong is my favourite example.Every character has his own story and the Bads are quite ironical.(I will always remember when the boss said:"Now I'm saying a cool tag-line about how much you will lose, but I know you must win me at the end because the developer has nerfed my attacks!")

In my perfect RPG you drive the hystory with your little actions(like sparing the life of some bad guy or giving a tip to an inventor).

Of course main battles will be epic, but you shouldn't be thrown in without a proper warning.
Currently working at:
Starwarrior 2097(my main project)
How to make successful games in Kongregate and the world(article)