Humans and Meat

But anyways, yeah, let's not get off topic and make this a religious debate.

If you guys don't want this to be a religious debate, then stop making it a religious debate and stop perpetuating it.

But anyways, yeah, let's not get off topic and make this a religious debate.

If you guys don't want this to be a religious debate, then stop making it a religious debate and stop perpetuating it.

Hideto brought it up related to veganism, so I responded with it, relating it to veganism. Warzone then talked about religion on its own, so I responded with it, as I try to answer posts directed towards me. Your two only posts here are telling me to, first, accept a moderator's decision (after I already did accept it!), and second, that I shouldn't respond to something directed at me. You aren't contributing at all to the discussion, both of your posts were just one-liners on unrelated topics, and I have no idea why you're posting stuff to seemingly just criticize me, considering you usually make very intelligent posts and I respect you as a good poster. I have no intentions of being rebellious towards a moderator's decision, and I have no intentions of making this a religious thread (I don't like talking about religion myself, and I am not very knowledgeable on it), and I've (hopefully, please tell me if I'm wrong) been being respectful in this thread, so I'm not sure why you're making me seem rebellious or something. If this comes off as feeling offended (after re-reading, it really does seem that way), know that I am not offended at all, but am just saying what I think.

To not make this completely irrelevant, I shall post 2 Darwin quotes, that are related to veganism:

"There is no fundamental difference between man and the higher animals in their mental faculties.… The lower animals, like man, manifestly feel pleasure and pain, happiness, and misery."

"The difference in mind between man and the higher animals, great as it is, certainly is one of degree and not of kind."

I am legitimately disgusted in you right now, claiming "Warzone then talked about religion on its own"... Okay.. (not to point fingeres) it was game girl that brought up Jesus in teh first place. It was not a religious debate or question, she just asked what proof is their that what's written in the bible is really what Jesus said, and I explained, and I didn't really bring religion into it though. YOU ARE THE ONE THAT SHARTED THE RELIGIOUS DEBATE WHEN YOU CLAIMED THE BIBLE SUPPORTS SLAVERY! Which it does not. ( I'm using my iPad so I camt copy text amd quoting is to big a trouble ) when it says the children of slaves are to work as slaves, they only work untill the debt is paid off, it explains it somwhere in exodus.


About foreign slaves, this was common practice back then for all nations. But all slaves back then were people who were fortunate enough that whoever conquered them, spared them. You were lucky to be a slave oppose to dead from your conquor. The reason they can take slaves from other nations, is because those other nations own them, and since it's thir property because they saved the slaves life, they can do what they want with him, so they would give ownership to whoever paid the most.


THE SLAVERY IN THE BIBLE WAS NOT RACIAL SLAVERY OR AMYTHING OF THAT SORT. All the slaves were slaves that were mercifully saved when thier nation was conquored, or was to pay off debt. The rules the bible gave for slavery was more fair than any otehr nations slavery was.


AND I JUST CAN'T GET OVER HOWNYOU BLAMIED ME THIS STARTED!!!

For a Muslim, it's not about the flavour or texture. Same with a Christian. It's about their "God-given right" to use animals as they do.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+25:44-46 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+21%3A20-21&version=CEB
As you can see with the links I sent you, the bible also allowed (and even gave guidelines on) slavery. Does that mean Christians should be able to enslave others? .

We were freakin talking about meat and then you started accusing us of supporting slavery!!! And them you freakin blame me for this debate!!! I am disgusted and you need to freakin take responsibility for what you freakin started!!! I am sick of you not only offending me! But offending my beliefs! I have tried my hardest to be respectful but still make my point clear the whole time! But you CONSTANTLY ATTACK A FREAKIN 14 YEAR OLD HIGHSCHOOL DROPPOUT!!!! I am sick of this!

Also, your ignorance on, as your bible says, your greatest passion, compared to somebody who knows little about the bible.

That freakin hurt.... Do you have no class at all? Your attacking a 14 year old... Your a freakin collage student and your saying this to a 14 year old?




I've said my part, and I am sick of this. I tried my hardest to bring religion out of this, amd I tried my hardest to make this a respectful discussion. But you turned this around amd constantly attacked and pointed fingers. I am quite disgusted you would say all this, and they point your finger at me and blame me for causing this arguement...




Btw, TGB started this whole meat topic when I was chat, and started claiming we rape pigs.

I am legitimately disgusted in you right now, claiming "Warzone then talked about religion on its own"... Okay.. (not to point fingeres) it was game girl that brought up Jesus in teh first place. It was not a religious debate or question, she just asked what proof is their that what's written in the bible is really what Jesus said, and I explained, and I didn't really bring religion into it though. YOU ARE THE ONE THAT SHARTED THE RELIGIOUS DEBATE WHEN YOU CLAIMED THE BIBLE SUPPORTS SLAVERY! Which it does not. ( I'm using my iPad so I camt copy text amd quoting is to big a trouble ) when it says the children of slaves are to work as slaves, they only work untill the debt is paid off, it explains it somwhere in exodus.


About foreign slaves, this was common practice back then for all nations. But all slaves back then were people who were fortunate enough that whoever conquered them, spared them. You were lucky to be a slave oppose to dead from your conquor. The reason they can take slaves from other nations, is because those other nations own them, and since it's thir property because they saved the slaves life, they can do what they want with him, so they would give ownership to whoever paid the most.


THE SLAVERY IN THE BIBLE WAS NOT RACIAL SLAVERY OR AMYTHING OF THAT SORT. All the slaves were slaves that were mercifully saved when thier nation was conquored, or was to pay off debt. The rules the bible gave for slavery was more fair than any otehr nations slavery was.


AND I JUST CAN'T GET OVER HOWNYOU BLAMIED ME THIS STARTED!!!

For a Muslim, it's not about the flavour or texture. Same with a Christian. It's about their "God-given right" to use animals as they do.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+25:44-46 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+21%3A20-21&version=CEB
As you can see with the links I sent you, the bible also allowed (and even gave guidelines on) slavery. Does that mean Christians should be able to enslave others? .

We were freakin talking about meat and then you started accusing us of supporting slavery!!! And them you freakin blame me for this debate!!! I am disgusted and you need to freakin take responsibility for what you freakin started!!! I am sick of you not only offending me! But offending my beliefs! I have tried my hardest to be respectful but still make my point clear the whole time! But you CONSTANTLY ATTACK A FREAKIN 14 YEAR OLD HIGHSCHOOL DROPPOUT!!!! I am sick of this!

Also, your ignorance on, as your bible says, your greatest passion, compared to somebody who knows little about the bible.

That freakin hurt.... Do you have no class at all? Your attacking a 14 year old... Your a freakin collage student and your saying this to a 14 year old?




I've said my part, and I am sick of this. I tried my hardest to bring religion out of this, amd I tried my hardest to make this a respectful discussion. But you turned this around amd constantly attacked and pointed fingers. I am quite disgusted you would say all this, and they point your finger at me and blame me for causing this arguement...








Btw, TGB started this whole meat topic when I was chat, and started claiming we rape pigs.

First of all, you seem to have put what I said in your quote and what you said in my quote (also, I never claimed we rape pigs- it is artificial insemination, and that happens mostly to cows, although it happens to pigs as well. What I said there was more the horrific stuff about ripping off testicles and such, which is not an opinion).

Second, I did not blame you, I just stated that you talked about religion on its own, that is not necessarily something bad. Gamegirlx did bring up religion, but what we talked about came from Hideto talking about the relationship it had with veganism, and you were the first to talk about it unrelated to veganism, although that is justified because you were defending what you believe (and I still do not agree with you at all on that). Also, I didn't stop being respectful to you just now, Warzone, and I didn't point fingers at you either. I don't want to continue a religious debate, so I'll stop here. Also, I'm not a college student, and 14 is old enough to stand up for yourself, you can't use your age so we pity you. This is regardless of whether the person who you think is bullying you is actually bullying you or not.

I thought that we ended the entire religious connection with my last post.  I guess not...  I'd really appreciate if people stop blaming me for "starting this".  It's not that I mentioned Jesus, I mentioned someone who Warzone knows about, who hasn't written anything.  I did this to prove a point about believing things, and any further mention of religion in terms of diet weren't pointing towards any specific religion.

I said last time that the Bible annoys me.  This is one of the reasons why.  I'm certain that NONE of us have the expertise to understand the culture of the Bible (unless you've spend significant time researching it, let's stop mentioning religious texts).  After all, there was that weird passage in the Old Testament saying something about not wearing wool and some other fabric type together (some people in the orthodox Jewish community probably follow this, but unless you're ultra-orthodox, it's a stupid argument to bring up uncommon, outdated practices).  I realize that there is good advice in the Bible, like not killing other people, but that should be obvious enough that nobody needs a Bible to tell them.  (And besides, I really don't care that it wasn't RACIAL slavery, because I feel that economic freedom is very important, at least in America.)

I don't know ANY people, especially near my age, that eat meat for religious reasons.  There are probably religions that encourage that, but most people decide to eat meat because of their CULTURE.  I don't know anyone who decided to be a vegetarian (or similar) because of their religion, either.  Eating meat has been a way to survive for so long, culture hasn't adapted to the way these animals are being treated, or the fact that you probably wouldn't starve on a vegetarian (or such) diet.  I think it's best to stay away from discussing 3rd world countries because they're probably not stable enough for the option to be open to many people.

As for the taste of these "fake meat products", I've already said that I can detect the when it's not real (I can also tell when it's been slow cooked, but that's another story).  I don't enjoy the taste of soy products, and I also don't like the taste of fake milk (soy, almond, rice, etc.), either.  I'll eat tofu, but only a certain way, and I don't know how I'd manage that every day.  As I've said before, I've struggled with my weight (unlike most Americans, I'm underweight), and I feel that a serious dietary change, like vegetarianism (or similar), would be very detrimental to my health.  Knowing the obesity problem in America, I'm probably the minority for eating meat because of this.

I still feel unclear on VEGANISM, though.  The only justification for its existence is the cruelty that animals like sheep or cows experience in their lives, which isn't directly related to the products that they produce (wool and milk, with the assumption that they'll die naturally).  Would veganism cease to exist if the animals (that don't die as a result) were treated properly?

(And Warzone, you really should reconsider going back to school.  It's necessary to have, at the very least a GED or HS diploma, although a college degree is really essential most of the time.  Designing games, especially with a company, really requires an education.  It really should be stressed.)

Let's be fair to WarZone and note I said the bulk of the stuff about religion, so technically I started this. I wasn't trying to start a religious debate. My point was to say that meat has been a core value in some societies for centuries. Banana brought up, and quite politely and reasonably so, that just because we've done something forever doesn't make it right, and he used slavery as an example. I don't feel he was attacking the bible or Christianity directly. He was arguing my point; I said something that's really old might need to be respected and he pointed out slavery is also really old so should we respect that, too?

For the record, I didn't mean to imply that I agree or disagree that really old customs need to be respected no matter how awful they might be. I was respondng to  gamegirl who (correct me if I'm wrong) said we should consider game content when making them as we could be inadvertently offending a fair-sized group of people with our themes and storylines, the implications, at least to me, being we could offend vegetarians of different stripes by having games where meat is eaten, and I asked what about offending other groups who find meat to be a core of their backgrounds and values?

It's more of a devil's advocate stance as I doubt anyone is going to say, "I'm offended by this game! It only has watermelons and other fruit in it! I demand meat!" That's just silly. I'm just saying we have to decide how much cultural respect are we going to try for, and in the end, whose cultural beliefs get to win out as part of our game theme, in the end.

In short, who is the bigger audience and how much do we care how they feel culturally, ethnically, religiously, ideally, emotionally, etc.-ly when designing a game?

Warzone then talked about religion on its own
I did not, I was responding to a reply
 
 
For a Muslim, it's not about the flavor or texture. Same with a Christian. It's about their "God-given right" to use animals as they do.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+25:44-46http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+21%3A20-21&version=CEB
As you can see with the links I sent you, the bible also allowed (and even gave guidelines on) slavery

Look me in the eye and tell me you did not go out on a limb, and randomly accuse of supporting slavery! We were freakin talking about rules on meat and then you bring up slavery!
 
after all, there was that weird passage in the Old Testament saying something about not wearing wool and some other fabric type together (some people in the orthodox Jewish community probably follow this, but unless you're ultra-orthodox, it's a stupid argument to bring up uncommon, outdated practices).
 
If I'm thinking of the right passage, it was talking about you cant wear wool or clothing with mold on anything growing on it. I'm not sure but this doesn't matter.
 
(also, I never claimed we rape pigs)
 
... Freakin ask Irock and blob if you said we rape pigs. The first thing you said to me when this whole debate started was "First, they rape a pig"
 
Also, I didn't stop being respectful to you just now
 
Does that mean you have been intentionally disrespectful the whole time? I get what you meant, just be careful what you say to not make slip-ups like this. But...
Also, your ignorance on, as your bible says, your greatest passion, compared to somebody who knows little about the bible.
 
are you saying this is not disrespectful? telling me dumber than you in a subject I spend more time on?That is not respect.
 
 
(And Warzone, you really should reconsider going back to school.  It's necessary to have, at the very least a GED or HS diploma, although a college degree is really essential most of the time.  Designing games, especially with a company, really requires an education.  It really should be stressed.)

 
I dropped out for about 3 weeks then decided I was going to try again. But now I'm behind because of this.

Let's just drop religion, ok? It's fine when we're talking about the relationship between veganism and religion but there's no point in debating religion on its own in this thread. I don't think you understood what I meant with most of what I said, Warzone, but I apologize if I offended you- it was not my intention.

...For the record, I didn't mean to imply that I agree or disagree that really old customs need to be respected no matter how awful they might be. I was respondng to  gamegirl who (correct me if I'm wrong) said we should consider game content when making them as we could be inadvertently offending a fair-sized group of people with our themes and storylines, the implications, at least to me, being we could offend vegetarians of different stripes by having games where meat is eaten, and I asked what about offending other groups who find meat to be a core of their backgrounds and values?
...
In short, who is the bigger audience and how much do we care how they feel culturally, ethnically, religiously, ideally, emotionally, etc.-ly when designing a game?

I just remembered that today's a "meatless" (meaning pescatarian, although I'm not going to eat fish anyways today) day for me because of Lent.  I'm lucky people aren't forced to fast anymore.

I'm pretty sure that WE'D get offended if a game portrayed animals, such as domesticated cats and dogs, being eaten (although I played the demo of Metal Gear Solid or whatever game Snake's in, and I found it to be a lot of fun eating snakes and stuff, although I would never eat that in real life).  The unique thing about veganism, like you said, is that their diet isn't offensive to everyone else in any way that I can think of.  I think that having the option to have things more acceptable to your culture/religion/etc. is the best thing that can be done.  In fact, many puzzle games have an option that helps the colorblind, so that they can play, but not at the expense of people who don't like the feature (as someone who has full-color vision, I'd rather play without that feature on, because it looks better).  There are plenty of games that are translated in several languages (although this has been known to mess up the words).  In addition,I thought it was fantastic that they added a female option to games like Pokémon (I didn't know, at first, that the earlier games lacked that feature...and the games also have more racial diversity to the NPC's you see, which might be a result of Japan, the location of the first four generations, not being racially diverse).

We could probably find ways to make games that accept multiple cultures.  For example, (if the game allows you to customize your clothing), there could be articles of women's clothing that are "modest" like the Muslim (there might be other cultures that do this) head wraps (or whatever they're called...Scarves, maybe?), which women wear to be modest self-respecting, and not look like a bimbo.  (I'd like to see an MMO ad that doesn't portray women as bimbos.)

...Money is money, no matter who it's from...

(It's good to know that you're in school, Warzone.  I, unfortunately, know the feeling of missing several weeks of a class.  It was an online AP French course, and when I finally got the errors to stop, I was two months behind.  I decided to drop the course because it didn't fit my learning style, and I was fortunate to get almost a full refund.  I do know someone who had mono for a really long time and missed tons of school, but she caught up.  Don't give up, Warzone...)

The one thing I most hope to have come out of this is that because someone holds a different cultural value than another, in this case, omnivorism, it doesn't get them labelled a monster here and shunned or shut out. This forum, not just this thread, again is for the promotion, use, and enjoyment of Stencyl. What I do in my private life shouldn't have an effect on how people choose to view me as a human being. I follow the laws of my country (Canada) and am generally a decent person, so I'm told. The rest of you seem equally decent. I don't want Stencyl turned into a political or idealogical platform. Let's keep this place a warm, friendly, and welcoming place for help and inspiration, yeah?

Maybe I'm being too much of a hippie. Anyway, I'm dropping out of this. I just can't see there's anything left really to say. You guys have tried very carefully to express your passions and I commend you for it, not that my opinion is some high, sought-after thing. Best of luck in your game(s) production.

Another forum I'm a member of has rules against discussing certain topics, including religion, which I found a bit silly until I came back to this thread and read the last page just now.

I could add to the discussion, but honestly, it's going nowhere fast, and I think some of the rules from this other forum could have some value here, to help keep this community civil and friendly, with a few slight alterations of course.

From the General Rules

Before things get weird...
Some things are just inappropriate. Don't post them. Keep explicit content implicit, and to a minimum.

Don't be a hater.
C'mon now. Don't post defamatory, abusive, bullying, harassing, racist, hateful, or violent material. Refrain from ethnic slurs, religious intolerance, homophobia, and personal attacks when here. This is the kind of thing that should go without saying.

This ain't Blazing Saddles.
You do need stinkin' badges. If someone is being a jerk, report, don't respond, and wait for the cavalry to arrive.

Be excellent to each other.
The greatest of all golden rules.

Party on, dudes!
We're all here to play, talk, and enjoy ourselves, remember these guidelines and we can all have a good time.

And specifically from the "Worldly Talk" forum rules

Because they lead to nothing but trouble, and/or contravene the sensibilities of the staff, the following topics are disallowed:
Creationism vs Evolution
The treatment of socialism or any other "form of government" as a qualitative discrete state that equates to "evil"
Existence of God
Abortion
Global warming (discussions of political or other solutions to this issue are allowed, so long as they do not question the underlying science)
The concept of there being scientific controversy concerning the efficacy of vaccines
The concept that any branch or sub branch of science or mathematics is inherently suspect
That 9/11, the Boston bombing, any of the numerous mass shootings or anything similar were a "false flag" inside job perpetrated by some government
Any threads which fall into these territories will be closed. Posts may be edited, and users banned.

Red is mine. Here are some nice quotes:
"Of all the creatures, man is the most detestable. Of the entire brood, he's the one that possesses malice. He is the only creature that inflicts pain for sport, knowing it to be pain. The fact that man knows right from wrong proves his intellectual superiority to the other creatures; but the fact that he can do wrong proves his moral inferiority to any creature that cannot." ~ Mark Twain
Except for Dolphins which take baby porpoises, mutilate them, and play with their corpses for fun. Who knows how many other animals are equally morbid. And how are we to say that other animals do not know right from wrong when we cannot talk to them and discover their thought processes

"My body will not be a tomb for other creatures." ~ Leonardo Da Vinci

"Nothing will benefit human health and increase the chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet." ~ Albert Einstein
A couple famous people want to be vegans. Plants may not have brains in the same manner that animals do; but it is ignorant to claim that because something is different it is incapable of feeling pain or having awareness. Modern studies have shown that plants do respond to being damaged, and use scents to communicate their pain to other plants. There is even a plant that can use scents to attract natural predators of parasites that feed on it. Trees have been found to do math on a daily basis to regulate their energy consumption at night. It is clear that plants possess the capability of complex thought, even if they do look different from animals.

"The question is not, 'Can they reason?' nor, 'Can they talk?' but rather, 'Can they suffer?' - Jeremy Bentham
Since pain exists as a means to alert a living being of being damaged, it stands to reason that if plants respond to damage, they must experience something analogous with pain, even if it takes a different form.

"We patronize them for their incompleteness, for their tragic fate for having taken form so far below ourselves. And therein do we err. For the animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older and more complete than ours, they move finished and complete, gifted with the extension of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren, they are not underlings: they are other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, fellow prisoners of the splendour and travail of the earth." ~ Henry Beston
Ironic then, that you pass off plants as clearly being too inferior to animals to matter, then quote someone berating the idea of passing off other animals as too inferior to humans to matter.

And, for all the people who tell me I alone won't make a difference, so what's the point:
"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do." ~ Edward Everett Hale
Yes, do something. Not eating meat isn't doing something, its just trading animal slaughter for plant slaughter. Go make the world a better place, rather than making a superficial change to your diet to feel better about yourself.

Green is mine.

Red is mine. Here are some nice quotes:
"Of all the creatures, man is the most detestable. Of the entire brood, he's the one that possesses malice. He is the only creature that inflicts pain for sport, knowing it to be pain. The fact that man knows right from wrong proves his intellectual superiority to the other creatures; but the fact that he can do wrong proves his moral inferiority to any creature that cannot." ~ Mark Twain
Except for Dolphins which take baby porpoises, mutilate them, and play with their corpses for fun. Who knows how many other animals are equally morbid. And how are we to say that other animals do not know right from wrong when we cannot talk to them and discover their thought processes

"My body will not be a tomb for other creatures." ~ Leonardo Da Vinci

"Nothing will benefit human health and increase the chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet." ~ Albert Einstein
A couple famous people want to be vegans. Plants may not have brains in the same manner that animals do; but it is ignorant to claim that because something is different it is incapable of feeling pain or having awareness. Modern studies have shown that plants do respond to being damaged, and use scents to communicate their pain to other plants. There is even a plant that can use scents to attract natural predators of parasites that feed on it. Trees have been found to do math on a daily basis to regulate their energy consumption at night. It is clear that plants possess the capability of complex thought, even if they do look different from animals.

"The question is not, 'Can they reason?' nor, 'Can they talk?' but rather, 'Can they suffer?' - Jeremy Bentham
Since pain exists as a means to alert a living being of being damaged, it stands to reason that if plants respond to damage, they must experience something analogous with pain, even if it takes a different form.

"We patronize them for their incompleteness, for their tragic fate for having taken form so far below ourselves. And therein do we err. For the animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older and more complete than ours, they move finished and complete, gifted with the extension of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren, they are not underlings: they are other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, fellow prisoners of the splendour and travail of the earth." ~ Henry Beston
Ironic then, that you pass off plants as clearly being too inferior to animals to matter, then quote someone berating the idea of passing off other animals as too inferior to humans to matter.

And, for all the people who tell me I alone won't make a difference, so what's the point:
"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do." ~ Edward Everett Hale
Yes, do something. Not eating meat isn't doing something, its just trading animal slaughter for plant slaughter. Go make the world a better place, rather than making a superficial change to your diet to feel better about yourself.

Green is mine.

Ok. First of all, I would prefer not to eat plants, but I don't have that option- it is impossible to live healthily without eating something that was once alive. I do not eat plants for taste/convenience, but for health, for survival. Second, somebody who eats meat is contributing to the death of not only that animal but 10x as many plants too, considering that the animal only gets 10% of the energy from the plant, so you end up getting 1% while I get 10% (primary consumer vs secondary consumer). Third, even when looking up biased searches regarding plants feeling pain, you will find it is not at all proven that they feel pain of any type, and it is not pain if it is not the type of pain we have, considering what we have requires a brain and nervous system. Whether they feel something is possible, but all results have been inconclusive, so saying that the slaughter of an animal = killing plants is ignorant. I am against the suffering and death of a sentient being, and plants do not have much worse conditions in plantations than they would have in the wild, and they are not sentient. I want to make it clear that not eating meat isn't trading animal slaughter for plant slaughter, as eating meat contributes to animal slaughter and 10x as much plant slaughter.
"Go make the world a better place, rather than making a superficial change to your diet to feel better about yourself."
Seriously? The industry of animal products are not only terrible in ethics, which you clearly don't care about, but also the environment, as the industry is one of the major contributors to pollution. You've been respectful until that sentence, and I don't know why you feel attacked by this thread.

Red is mine. Here are some nice quotes:
"Of all the creatures, man is the most detestable. Of the entire brood, he's the one that possesses malice. He is the only creature that inflicts pain for sport, knowing it to be pain. The fact that man knows right from wrong proves his intellectual superiority to the other creatures; but the fact that he can do wrong proves his moral inferiority to any creature that cannot." ~ Mark Twain
Except for Dolphins which take baby porpoises, mutilate them, and play with their corpses for fun. Who knows how many other animals are equally morbid. And how are we to say that other animals do not know right from wrong when we cannot talk to them and discover their thought processes

"My body will not be a tomb for other creatures." ~ Leonardo Da Vinci

"Nothing will benefit human health and increase the chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet." ~ Albert Einstein
A couple famous people want to be vegans. Plants may not have brains in the same manner that animals do; but it is ignorant to claim that because something is different it is incapable of feeling pain or having awareness. Modern studies have shown that plants do respond to being damaged, and use scents to communicate their pain to other plants. There is even a plant that can use scents to attract natural predators of parasites that feed on it. Trees have been found to do math on a daily basis to regulate their energy consumption at night. It is clear that plants possess the capability of complex thought, even if they do look different from animals.

"The question is not, 'Can they reason?' nor, 'Can they talk?' but rather, 'Can they suffer?' - Jeremy Bentham
Since pain exists as a means to alert a living being of being damaged, it stands to reason that if plants respond to damage, they must experience something analogous with pain, even if it takes a different form.

"We patronize them for their incompleteness, for their tragic fate for having taken form so far below ourselves. And therein do we err. For the animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older and more complete than ours, they move finished and complete, gifted with the extension of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren, they are not underlings: they are other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, fellow prisoners of the splendour and travail of the earth." ~ Henry Beston
Ironic then, that you pass off plants as clearly being too inferior to animals to matter, then quote someone berating the idea of passing off other animals as too inferior to humans to matter.

And, for all the people who tell me I alone won't make a difference, so what's the point:
"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do." ~ Edward Everett Hale
Yes, do something. Not eating meat isn't doing something, its just trading animal slaughter for plant slaughter. Go make the world a better place, rather than making a superficial change to your diet to feel better about yourself.

Green is mine.

Ok. First of all, I would prefer not to eat plants, but I don't have that option- it is impossible to live healthily without eating something that was once alive. I do not eat plants for taste/convenience, but for health, for survival. Second, somebody who eats meat is contributing to the death of not only that animal but 10x as many plants too, considering that the animal only gets 10% of the energy from the plant, so you end up getting 1% while I get 10% (primary consumer vs secondary consumer). Third, even when looking up biased searches regarding plants feeling pain, you will find it is not at all proven that they feel pain of any type, and it is not pain if it is not the type of pain we have, considering what we have requires a brain and nervous system. Whether they feel something is possible, but all results have been inconclusive, so saying that the slaughter of an animal = killing plants is ignorant. I am against the suffering and death of a sentient being, and plants do not have much worse conditions in plantations than they would have in the wild, and they are not sentient. I want to make it clear that not eating meat isn't trading animal slaughter for plant slaughter, as eating meat contributes to animal slaughter and 10x as much plant slaughter.
"Go make the world a better place, rather than making a superficial change to your diet to feel better about yourself."
Seriously? The industry of animal products are not only terrible in ethics, which you clearly don't care about, but also the environment, as the industry is one of the major contributors to pollution. You've been respectful until that sentence, and I don't know why you feel attacked by this thread.

It might be theoretically more efficient to receive energy from eating plants (though a healthy diet is far more complex than just a calorie count); but then, would that not be punishing the plants for daring to have evolved to exist harmoniously without killing?  The meat industry may not be great; but it is better than it used to be, and thanks to people demanding more humane treatment of the animals it is continuing to improve. It is also better than hunting, as to support our population, if we did not raise animals for food we would be hunting whole species into extinction.  Additionally; the farm industry is not without it's own problems. Vegetables somehow contaminated with e-coli, pesticides causing the accidental deaths of animals, and genetic tampering (I'm talking the Monsanto contagious sterilization gene, not just plumper grapes) make both sides of the food industry distasteful. 

And how is it fair to say that experiencing pain differently means their suffering does not exist? If we came across aliens who evolved entirely differently than earth animals would it be fair to claim them to be inferior to us on account that we do not understand them?

Also, I believe you misunderstood my last statement; I am not being disrespectful, I am just pointing out the meaning of the quote. The quote says to *do something*. Being a picky eater is not doing something for the world, it is just making you feel better about yourself. If you want to bring about positive change, you have to do good, not just be satisfied by not doing bad.

"I would prefer not to eat plants."
You do realize that anything that you can eat (with the exception of salt, maybe) can be traced downwards in the food chain to plants, right?  The only thing that would logically justify saying that would be if you hated the taste of plants so much, and decided that the upper part of the food chain is much tastier.  Or if you wish that you could photosynthesize.  Or if you're a genetically (because a vegan diet still does not make a person a herbivore, because they still have the ability to digest meat) mutated human carnivore.

"...Punishing plants..."
If anything, plants (like corn) have seen nothing besides rewards.  Evolutionarily, these plants are more successful than they would have been without humans.  We're turning the scales of natural selection so that bugs don't eat our crops, although this can potentially have its own bad effects for everyone.

"Being a picky eater is not doing something for the world..." First of all, I AM A PICKY EATER, and I AM NOT A VEGETARIAN (OR SIMILAR).  Second of all, I'm pretty sure everyone here lives in an America-like (wow, that sounds ignorant) country in the sense of capitalism.  The idea is that there's a "natural selection" for businesses, where the ones that don't make enough money die.  Lastly, I wish that more people had the urge to do good things to boost their self-esteem, because the world would be a better place.  I think that despite its "passivity," vegetarianism (and such) still makes a difference, but probably not as big as being proactive.  There's no reason to think that vegetarians (and such) aren't proactive when they're not eating.

I'll emphasize the fact that plants are not the same as animals again.  Clearly they're capable of doing something like a "knee jerk reaction," but that's like saying that corpses don't want to be disturbed because they become stiff.  It's like saying that baking soda and vinegar have feelings because they act angry when they are put together.  Neither plants nor corpses nor baking soda and vinegar have feelings, and even if these facts cause them to have feelings, it shouldn't change anything (the respect that corpses are treated with is not because of their feelings, but rather because of customs and empathy from the living).

I'm pretty amazed that even with all our advanced science, people are still finding superstitious conclusions (or else you're trolling or something, which isn't much more comforting).  You're leading to conclusions with evidence that's neither strong enough or relevant enough to support your arguments.  I'm not trying to be mean, but this discussion is regressing.  I really thought that this was finished on TWO different occasions already.